business talk radio network

Craig Crossman's Computer America
Host: Carey Holzman
September 9, 2005

Holzman: Tonight we have a gentleman named Steven Sprague. He is the President and CEO of Wave Systems Corporation based in Lee, Massachusetts. He's a pioneer of the Trusted Computing movement. He's been an executive and technology developer in computer security and eCommerce since the late 1980s and has spoken and presented at more than 100 industry forums, and he holds a patent in the area of eCommerce. His company, Wave Systems, addresses critical issues facing businesses and government today and deceivers some secure software solutions that are engineered to be easier to use and manage. Wave's Trusted Computing solutions include strong authentication and data protection, advanced password management and enterprise-wise trust management services. So let give me an idea of the scope of this. Wave's EMBASSY technologies can be found today in products shipped by Intel, STMicro Electronics, Winbond - what used to be called National Semiconductor, and they work with all PC security chips compliant with the Trusted Computing Group specifications. Now, all this may sound like Greek to you, however you probably have it in your PC, you don't even know it. And we're going to talk about this, what it is specifically and how you activate it if you want to. Their software is even available through Dell and other leading distribution channels. So, ahh, got all of that out.

My guest in tonight's first hour, CEO of Wave Systems Corp, Steven Sprague. Steven, welcome to Computer America show.

Sprague: Thank you for having me.

Holzman: I appreciate you joining us on the short notice there. What can you tell us about Trusted Computing? What does that mean, "Trusted Computing?"

Sprague: So we all know the challenge of security on the Internet today. The PC has been a real challenge, especially over the course of the last couple of years. And, the PC industry has gotten together to try to address this problem in a very broad manner. So there's an industry standards group that is made up of over 100 companies that have gotten together to specify a set of building blocks for security inside the PC. And it's based around a new hardware security chip that to date has shipped in well over 20 million PCs worldwide, that provides a place to hold secrets, in essence to hold passwords or identities or keys that you can protect information with on the computer. And so it's really a new set of tools, that everyone will have access to, to improve the quality of the types of transactions we do every day on the internet.

Holzman: So this is a chip. Now, is it a chip that is part of the processor or is it a chip that is part of the motherboard?

Sprague: It's a chip that's part of the motherboard. There are a number of companies that are manufacturing them, companies like STMicro Electronics, Atmel, Winbond, a number of others. So it's a new chip that goes on the motherboard of the PC and it's very similar in security to a smartcard. So you now have a chip that's on the motherboard that can store secrets that's really resistance to tampering by any software application, either a rogue user of that machine or any software that gets accidentally put on your machine.

Holzman: So, there's software like RoboForm, for example, that will hold your name and address and credit card information so that you don't have to keep re-entering this information every time you visit a website to make a purchase. Is this similar to that, but it's hardware?

Sprague: Correct. So actually we produce a similar application to that, that will do form filling and maintain your list of passwords. The difference is that the list of passwords, instead of being held in a software file on your hard disk, is encrypted and protected by keys that are held on this hardware. And the only way to release this, really to decrypt that file is supply your local PIN number or your local biometric that unlocks the chip and says, "Okay, it's okay to open that file and release the information." So for the first time, you have an extra piece of hardware, completely independent of the Windows Operating System, that's going to be able to look up and say, "That PIN number that person typed in matched the PIN number I expect." And so it's a highly tamper-resistant security device within the PC. Very similar to a debit card or other aspects of secure commerce that's out there.

Holzman: Well, this is going to be a very interesting interview already, because as a technician, I've been a computer technician since about 1990 and I've seen it all, yet I've seen nothing. I continue to see things that people bring in and I shake my head going, "Wow, I've never seen that before." One of the concerns that people have when they either sell a computer or they throw a computer away is the hard drive. But now you're telling that the data is stored on a chip, so what happens when they get rid of the computer or give it somebody, sell it, whatever, even though the person theoretically doesn't have access to data on the chip, how much can they erase the chip to store their own personal data on it? How does that work?

Sprague: Actually this becomes a very valuable component in that, because I can now encrypt files on my hard disk and store the keys in silicon on the computer, and if I delete those keys, then all the files that are on that hard disk that are encrypted, there's no keying information left in the computer that would allow me to decrypt that data.

Holzman: So, let me interrupt for just a second. So if I understand you correctly, if you were replacing your hard drive and you took your old hard drive and every body's worrying about, well someone is going to pull it out the trash can and pull my data off, would that hard drive then be unreadable to people because it's no longer in that system?

Sprague: That's correct. The software that we provide is providing file and folder encryption, but we've actually being doing some work and have demonstrated a number of systems with Seagate where they're embedding strong encryption all the way up into the drive controller. So the drive controller actually hand shakes with the Trusted Platform Module chip on the PC, and now what I have is a fully secured drive. So this is really the first building block of building a Trusted Computer and it provides the key management, the storage of that sensitive data in the computer and preventing any software application from pulling that data out unless ...

Holzman: So in other words, if someone was infected with a virus of some sort that was scouraging [sic] the hard drive for data this would not be accessible to that virus.

Sprague: Correct. Because that would be the challenge for example with something like RoboForms or even simpler my Windows password list, it's kept in the registry.

Holzman: Right.

Sprague: It's always in the same place. So if I write a virus that knows to just go to that location and send me the file, I get all of your passwords.

Holzman: Or, there's software out there designed to, like the SAM file [Security Accounts Manager file] in Windows XP / Windows 2000. There's software that will un-encode that or do dictionary attacks to figure out what the password is, or passwords that are hidden behind the little asterisks that will display. Is this immune to those sort of things?

Sprague: Yes, absolutely, because in essence, I have to supply a PIN number that is compared on a security chip not by the main processor. So, I can't attack it through the normal software attacks. I have to actually go get the PIN number. Once I supply that, I can unlock a key or multiple keys. And a number of vendors have already increased the security of the PIN number by taking advantage of biometrics on the platform, so that instead of PIN number I'm supplying my fingerprint to unlock those keys.

Holzman: Okay, so biometrics would be maybe an eye retina scanner, fingerprint scanner...

Sprague: I'd say mostly in the form of a fingerprint scanner, for example the new IBM, now no longer IBM, Lenovo Think Pads have fingerprint scanners on them that can be used to unlock keys on the Trusted Platform Modules.

Holzman: Let's say your average Joe, you're hearing this radio show, like myself you're reading the PC magazines - PC World, PC Magazine - you've read maybe little snippets about this technology but no in depth... I've not seen anything in depth on this; this is the first I've really heard of this... and I want to activate this, and then I forget my password. What happens? Do I have to start over again, or what do you do?

Sprague: So there are really two aspects to it. It's like anything. If you've not taking any precautions to backup your keys, then you can be somewhat stuck. We provide a set of utilities that we ship with every platform that includes our software, that offers basic backup capabilities, so that I can protect myself from myself.

Holzman: Exactly.

Sprague: Right? Exactly, that's the goal here.

But at the end of the day both the attraction and benefit of security is that I can have very strong security in the platform and then I can make a mess for myself. So having strong backup and recovery capabilities, both as an individual user is important and as an enterprise is very important. And so we provide a set of utilities that do that, that keep track of your keys. Allow you to backup them up for example to a key fob or any form of external storage ...

Holzman: You mean like a USB drive ... So you can have like a USB drive, put your keys on it. Now would it be possible to take and use those keys on a different computer?

Sprague: Yes, it is possible to actually move keys from one machine to the other. That's very important. Because we see this as the basis, and it's really in the early stages at this point, but it's basis for all of your different relationships on the web. So you can imagine a computer where I instead of having to remember any User IDs and Passwords, I just have my computer know all the places and services I belong to, and so I have hundreds of keys and what I want to do is be able to go buy a new machine and move my life from machine A to machine B. And so those are important utilities and those are commercially available today. We supply them and there are couple of other companies who are offering capabilities as well.

Holzman: What about using a cybercafé or something like that? Where you just want it temporarily?

Sprague: The interesting aspect in a cybercafé is, there's sort of two sides to it. One is if the cybercafé has a trusted computer then I could temporarily provide keys that are stored within a Trusted Platform Module, which would not be accessible to other users in the cybercafé. And secondly, for the first time I might be able to identify my home machine differently than a cybercafé machine from a login perspective. And so maybe I can do more things at my online banking account from my home computer, which is more heavily authorized, than just logging in with User ID and Password to transfer funds from one account to another at any cybercafé in the world.

Holzman: Okay. Well, I'll tell you what we're running right up against a break here. If you have a question: 866-606-TALK. That's our toll free number. Give us a call or send at live@computeramerica.com. We'll have more with Steven Sprague, Presdient and CEO of Wave Systems right after this, so please stay with us.

[break]

Holzman: This is the Computer America show and we're being broadcast to you live on the Business and Lifestyle Networks, and tonight I'm talking to Steven Sprague, pronounced his name correctly that time. He's the President and CEO of Wave Systems Corporation. We're talking about Trusted Computing, ways of securing and storing your personal information, credit card numbers and things like that on your computer, in a way that is totally, completely secure, and the details of how this all works.

If you have a question, give us a call toll free: 866-606-8255 or send us an email to live@computeramerica.com or just join us in our chat room at computeramerica.com, Our guest is hanging out in the chat room there and a bunch of other folks. And I guess, my next question is, what's the driving force behind this? We've gone on all this time without this. What's changed today that we need this now more than say we needed it four years ago?

Sprague: Well in many ways I would argue that we needed it desperately four years ago. We've finally gotten around to delivering it.

The driving force behind this right now is, Microsoft has made this part of the next Operating System, and their using this technology as part of what they call Secure Start, which is their bootup process of Microsoft Vista. And so that's helped to drive the technology into the platforms and really convince the OEMs to put it in every machine they build. But it has tremendous application beyond the sort of base uses that Microsoft is using it for today.

Holzman: How would somebody know if their computer already has this chip?

Sprague: The easiest way to tell is through the BIOS. Most of the machines have shipped with the Trusted Platform Module turned off, and you can enable them through the BIOS, and then install the software to manage the Trusted Platform Module.

Holzman: So the Trusted Platform Module, the chip on the motherboard, it's turned on, it's enabled or disabled through the BIOS. Do you know what the BIOS is calling that? What the user would look for?

Sprague: In many cases it's just called a TPM, a Trusted Platform Module.

Holzman: TPM.

Sprague: IBM has referred to it as a different brand name within their machines. But it's under the security section of the BIOS. And really at any of the PC manufacturers websites they have instructions on how to turn it on on their specific machine.

Holzman: Okay, now once it's on, it does you no good unless you also add software?

Sprague: That's correct.

Holzman: And then, where do they get the software? Is it specific software? Is that where your company comes in?

Sprague: So, that is where our company comes in. In many cases the PC manufacturers are shipping some software with the platforms. So it depends on the specific machine. For example, we today provide software that ships with every Intel motherboard. So if you buy an Intel motherboard there's a CD ROM that comes with the machine that has a collection of our software bundled with the motherboard. We are also supplying our software on a number of others.

Holzman: This is what I'm talking about. I just built, I just literally built, in fact I'm using it now probably for the second week, an Intel Pentium D Dual-Core system. And I used the motherboard, you know you get into a habit, I used the drivers that come with the board...

Sprague: Yes.

Holzman: I'm sorry, I used the CD ROM that comes with the board to load the drivers, but I never bothered to look on the CD ROM. Because usually the software that comes on there I've kind of learned, "oh I don't need any of that," so I've quit looking. So now, what you're basically telling me is I have software and a chip on my board that I don't even know that I've got...

Sprague: If you've got a high end Intel motherboard you most likely have a Trusted Platform Module on it. It's not on everything, but it's on quite a high percentage of the Intel motherboards. So you can turn it on and use it. Has our software in the box.

Holzman: I will have to look at that now that you've got me curious. I've got the D945PVS board or something, but it is what I needed to get for the Dual-Core. So I just built it. I mean the system is less that three months old and that's perfect for me. Typically me, I don't need to read the instructions, right? I just build it and I'm using it and I'm happy and everything's working and there's features it's got that I didn't even know it's got.

And so what you're telling me. I load this software and I can start storing, what? My eBay password. I can store credit card numbers. I can store logins for emails. Am I on the right track here?

Sprague: Yes, very much so. So we provide a set of applications. One of the key applications is what we call our Personal Information Manager, which is User IDs and Passwords, credit card information, basic form fill data, and it will make best efforts to fill webforms. And it has a whole set of different policies that you can select that really supports the legacy infrastructure that's the Internet today.

We believe that most of the web services providers, as the volume of trusted platform enabled machines comes up, the majority of web services providers will take advantage of this to completely eliminate User ID and Password.

So the goal is pure, strong authentication. There's really no need to logon.

Holzman: We're running up against a break, but I want to talk, when we come back, I want to talk more about how they can get rid of using the Username and Password, and what that means if you're not using your computer. So, tell you what we're going to take a quick break.

Our number again: 866-606-TALK, if you have a question. It's toll free number, it'll cost you nothing. Send an email to live@computeramerica.com with your question as well. We'll be right back after this, so please stay with us.

[break]

Holzman: Welcome back to the Computer America show. We're being broadcast to you live on the Business and Lifestyle talk radio Networks. And tonight, I'm talking with Steven Sprague. He is the Presdient and CEO of a company called Wave Systems Corporation, and we're talking about secure, well trusted computing. That's the word, trusted computing. Before the break you had mentioned the elimination of Username and Passwords, which is, that would be bliss for me. Often times when I'm rebuilding somebody's computer or having to sell somebody a new computer and they want to move all their stuff over. I say, "Okay. We're going to set this, for example, your email back up. Just tell me your Username and Password." And I can not count the number of times I've heard, "I don't have a password." They have no idea that they have a password. How does getting rid of the Username and Password work? Is it tied into the machine itself?

Sprague: Well, in essence, yes. I mean, what would happen would be that I would have credentials on my machine that would authenticate me to a service. So for example, today at Wave all of our Virtual Private Network connections take advantage of Trusted Computing. So, in essence, if I have an authorized machine it gets on the Network. And it just works. It's not very different than for example your cellular phone, which has credentials in your cellular phone, and you pick it up and you turn it on, and it's on the Network.

Holzman: Well, that's true...

Sprague: You don't have to login to your cell phone.

Holzman: Right. That actually makes sense. Except that somebody has to set it up.

Sprague: Well, correct. But like any service provider they had to set up User ID and Password as well.

Holzman: Well, that's true.

Sprague: Really, the benefit is an embedded security capability that's the same on everybody's computer, because this is an industry standard that's in the process of being deployed on really every manufacturers machine out there. So the probability that ultimately someone like an eBay or Citibank or the major corporations in the world would use it, I think is very high. And so the ability for me to have a machine that I carry with me, and I can certainly populate my credentials to multiple computers, the opportunity is to provide my relationship across a very broad level of services.

Holzman: I tell you what, a caller just called in. Steve from North Carolina has a question. Steve?

Steve: Yes. Hi Craig, Steven. I was wondering...

Holzman: This is Carey. Steve?

Steve: Yes.

Holzman: Craig has the night off. This is Carey.

Steve: I'm sorry. I'm sorry Carey.

Holzman: No problem. What's your question?

Steve: It sounds like TPMs, if it's going to become a standard on all PCs out there in some near future, and how far away are we from having the banks, eBay and so forth require a TPM on our PC to do eCommerce with us? And also, if they're requiring that, who's going to ... does there need to be a third party to verify that our TPM, our PC is a trusted PC?

Sprague: So, not really. So I would say two things. One, I think it would be an extremely long time before someone will require that you have it. I believe that we will continue to use User ID and Password for a very long period of time. For those who would like to take advantage of this technology, it really is a relationship between the service provider and the individual. And each individual service provider gives you their own credentials. So I don't have to have a third party that validates that my VISA credential is my VISA credential. It's just like today, I don't have to have a third party if VISA gives me a User ID and Password. I can use it to logon. And what they really know is that I'm the same person logging on that I was yesterday. So I can provide a very strong assurance that this is my account, this is who I am and that Citibank gave me this account. But that only works for Citibank. I can't really use that information to go to American Express. I'd have to go set up an account with American Express.

Holzman: Did that answer your question Steve?

Steve: Yes. Sure did.

Holzman: Alright, thanks for calling. It was a great question. We've only got about thirty seconds left in this segment and I'm still trying to wrap my head around this concept. And when we come back, we'll talk about what somebody can do if they have an older computer and not planning to replace it. If there's a software equivalent they can use. And why the hardware part of it is so important, and why not just encrypt it in software on the hard drive?

This is the Computer America show. We're going to have a lot more here with Wave Systems Corporation right after these messages, so please stay with us.

[break]

Holzman: You're listening to the Computer America show broadcast to you live on the Business and Lifestyle Networks. Tonight, talking with Steven Sprague, the President and CEO or Wave Systems Corporation, talking about trusted computing. If you have a question, call us, toll free, 866-606-TALK. That's our toll free number or send us an email at live@computeramerica.com or just come into our chat room at computeramerica.com. And a lot of folks are like, "What's wrong with Carey he's so serious tonight." But hey, we're talking about a serious issue tonight and it's very near and dear to my heart, trusted computing. I talk to a lot of people who say, "You know all these viruses and the trojans and the worms and the anti-virus and the anti-spyware and the firewalls, I just don't do any purchasing or banking online." Do you think that using TPM will be some form of security that will alleviate these fears from folks who are avoiding using their computer for commerce?

Sprague: I think we certainly hope so. I think there are many challenges with ultimately building the layers of trust, so that users get comfortable. And what we need to do is eliminate the general discussion of fraud that goes on every day. I mean any time you pick up the newspaper, we hear another time that somebody left a laptop in the back of the trunk of a car with 30,000 names and people's numbers on it. And trusted computing can really help that, because for the first time I can have sort of automated security. Right? It provides the basic capabilities to enable strong protection of my data in my machine, so if I lose my laptop I don't lose all my information.

Holzman: Recently in a review on Zvetco, they make biometric devices. And I've never used one before, and I was doing a review on it and explaining how it all works. It's a fingerprint scanner. And I realized that the fingerprint scanner is just one piece of it. Without the software that comes along with it, and the software would for example store my Username and Password, so if I visited eBay, it could either enter that for me, automatically my name and password, or it could require me to scan my fingerprint first. And I'm trying to form some sort of a relation, a comparison in my head, of what this chip is, because I'm wondering ... the software encrypts everything and stores it on the hard drive as an encrypted file, so if anybody gets ahold of the hard drive, they can't do anything with the file ...

Sprague: So here's the problem and the problem is very simple: somewhere on your hard drive is the other half of the key to unlock the software on your hard drive.

Holzman: [crosstalk] ... Sure, because it has to know... [crosstalk]

Sprague: You're going to type in a password, "1234," the answer to that question less the password is stored on your hard drive in the clear. And if you think about it, it's like being in a very large white room with very small print written on the wall with the secret. Given enough time, energy and coffee, you can find that secret, somewhere buried in the machine. And when you uncover it, because all of the machines in the world are generally the same, or at least a vast majority of them, then I can break the whole system.

And so what hardware security provides is the ability to store the other half of the password and to have the engine to compare did you know the password.

Holzman: But, is that an absolute must have in order for this whole process to work? Or if somebody has an older computer, can they just get the software portion of it?

Sprague: So for an older computer today, there are many technologies in the marketplace where I can get a USB token or for example a biometric sensor an RSA secure ID. There are lots of different technologies that are out there, the problem is, they're all proprietary and they're all different. And so, it's not vastly different than Microsoft and Intel and a number of other players in the industry saying, "Let's put multi-media in the same way on every computer." And it launches an industry.

So now what we're doing is providing security in the same way, and a strong set of applications in what we build from our EMBASSY software, to enable really good open security. Anyone can use it. Anyone can establish the policies that they want to in order to control it, for whatever purpose they need it for. Protecting []. Protecting a service that I have. Protecting content.

Holzman: But the chip is... you have to have the chip?

Sprague: Correct.

Holzman: Okay. I tell you what we've ...

Sprague: The challenge of course is, it's going to take a few years while we replace the entire billion computer installed base.

Holzman: Right.

Sprague: But the beauty is, that that's going to happen.

Holzman: We have another caller. John from Kansas City, Missouri. John, welcome to Computer America.

John: Hi. Am I on?

Holzman: You are on the air.

John: Hey, thank you. Hey Carey, got your name didn't I? And Steve Sprague, thank you for listening to me a minute here. I'm an investor. I like what I hear about the technology. It's pretty difficult to absorb though. And what my question is, really Steve Sprague is. what are three or four primary factors that you could tell me that would convince me that Wave Systems is a good investment and maybe even an outstanding investment? Could you address that? And get away from the technology for a minute?

Holzman: What a question.

Sprague: I'd be happy to address it. Wave has been focused in this area a long time. We've been a heavy influencer in establishing the standards, and as a result we have a tremendous first mover advantage with a number of the big PC manufacturers. So we believe this is a game of supplying volume, and supplying companies like Intel and Dell with the software...

Holzman: Hold on just a ...

Sprague: that they bundle with their machines, brings volume to this marketplace. And ultimately we believe that this is a very important set of capabilities for managing relationships on the Internet, which is really where all the value is. So if we can be in the middle of that...

Holzman: ... hang...

Sprague: ... in introducing the capabilities to strongly manage relationships and services, we think there's a tremendous market there. So it's a market growing without our, we don't have to sell every unit. We're partnering with the major manufacturers to get this deployed in very high volumes.

IDC believes that half of all PCs shipped in 2007 will have Trusted Platform Modules on them, which is 70,000,000 units a year.

Holzman: Did that answer your question John? ... Did we lose John? I hear he's got his radio up in the background, so we're getting an echo. I was trying to break in there to tell him to turn his radio down.

John, thanks for calling. I don't know if we lost you or not. John from Kansas City. Good question though. Excellent question as a matter of fact.

And that's what I'm working on, because I too find that the technology, trying to wrap my head around this works, it seems like it should be something simple, but I guess even for somebody such a myself who's been in the business and I deal with this, the details of it - that a computer like a cell phone would recognize you so you don't have to remember names and passwords, and what does that mean when go use somebody else's computer. Now you don't know your name and your password any more. It's like autodial on the cell phone. I don't know anybody's phone number any more. If I don't have my cell phone with me, I can't call anybody I know. I have to call information and say, "Can you call this person? The number sounds like this: beepbeepbeep boopboopboop." I don't know their number any more.

I tell you what, we're going to take a quick break, and we'll have more with the CEO of Wave Systems Corporation right after these messages. Please stick around.

[break]

Holzman: Welcome back to the Computer America show, being broadcast to you live on the Business and Lifestyle talk radio networks. And tonight, talking with Steven Sprague, he's the President and CEO of Wave Systems Corporation. Talking about trusted computing. And during our last segment here, and I feel like we just barely scratched the surface of this topic, I still have like about 747 more questions, but instead of me kind of interrogating you, why don't you tell us anything that perhaps I haven't touched on that you'd like to mention. I'll just throw the floor to you.

Sprague: Oh, thank you. I think the most important thing for anyone who's heard about this technology is to begin to understand it, and to understand how it might impact what they do with a computer on a general basis. Whether you're an individual user, a small business or a large enterprise. This is the industry's response to how are we going to improve security, very broadly. And we really have only just scratched the surface. We've talked about authentication. There's a whole set of capabilities around nesting PCs into the network around applications in the server. I'm actually speaking at an Embedded Systems Conference on Monday because there's a whole role for this in mobile phones and other devices.

So we're really just at the beginning of introducing true security to the PC, and it's going to change the way we all do business. Hopefully our children will remind us of the days that we had User IDs and Passwords, in the same ways that they remind us of the days when computers didn't have a color screen and audio.

So it's a tremendous capability. It has tremendous advantages for all end users, and the most important thing today is begin to play with it. Turn it on. Make sure your next PC has it.

That's probably the most important message today, if you're buying a new PC, if you're in the market for a new PC, ask your vendors to supply you with a computer that has a Trusted Platform Module on it. And then when you get it, come to Wave and get our software and take advantage of what we've built in the EMBASSY Trust Suite, which is a really good set of utilities to begin to use the technology today. We provide a good really basic set of capabilities for data protection, user identity management and backup and recovery.

So hopefully this has been a good introduction to what trusted computing can do for you.

Holzman: I suppose people could learn more at the website wave.com?

Sprague: Absolutely, there's a ton of information at wave.com on this. Also the trustedcomputinggroup.org website is a really good source of information as well for people who want to dive down into the really grey technical details.

Holzman: I think we're going to have you back again when this becomes a little more mainstream. Certainly, we're still early here. Things are starting to get rolling. And I think I personally, after this show, I'm going to boot up my computer, look at the BIOS. I bet it's in there. And I want to put the motherboard CD in and load the software and start playing with it. So maybe I'll know what I'm talking about next time we have you on. I'll have more relevant questions. But it's been a real pleasure having you on. And I appreciate you coming on the show here. It was kind of a last minute thing and very educational.

Sprague: Thanks very much. Thanks for having us.

Holzman: Thanks. And you take care now.